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[rhnarv]

In the name of keeping the peace;

I will ask that participants (nobody is forcing anybody to be here)
adhere to responsible and respectful interchange,
Please, no personal name calling.


Any posting containing personal attacks language against other participants or staff will be deleted.

Thank you for your understanding.

[chicanito]

Mr Che Guevara wannabe:  Why is it that nowadays, someone posts something and almost immediately, some nerdy, no-girlfriend, no-job, no-friends, no-social life, ass**** jumps up and wants to pick a fight over the internet like a coward behind the computer screen under an anonymous screen name??!!!!!!


Don't you feel you are doing the same thing with this statement as you accuse Che of doing. Without attempting to further explain the points you are trying to make so not only Che can understand but the rest of us, you get defensive. Right away shoot back with personal attack instead of trying to create a dialogue so the exchange of information can occur. I may not agree with everything that is posted on this website but I feel it is important to try and learn from each other.

[chicanito]

Básicamente, si tú no hablas el español que se habla en México, tú estás COMPLETAMENTE desconectado de tus raíces mexicanas/chicanas.  Te pierdes TODO!!!!!  Lo poco indígena que sobrevive en México está en la lengua, la música, la religión, las costumbres, la comida....  Si tú no vives la cultura mexicana/chicana, ¿qué dereches tienes tú de llamarte «mexicano» o «chicano»?

If your parents were white-washed, sellout idiots and didn't teach you Spanish that's one thing and I feel sorry for you, but that doesn't mean can't learn Spanish on your own as an adult.  I learned Portuguese and I'm studying Nahuatl on my own.  If I could learn a different language I don't see why you can't , or
anyone else, learn Spanish.

There are many individuals who unfortunately are not taught Spanish who should be penalized for this. Speaking spanish is not the only key to the Mexicano/Chicano culture. There are lots of people in Mexico particularly the elite who speak the language fluently and know the culture but are the biggest vendidos, so who get rich of oppression that they inflict to their own people. Do this people have more of a right to call themselves Chicano/Mexicano then a first generation Mexicano born in the US, who does not speak any spanish but is willing to fight for his people .

In my case, my first language was Spanish but because of schools were English is promoted over Spanish. Over time I began to loose my Spanish abilities. Today I can still speak it fair and understand it
pretty well. I have tried to relearn it so I can be more fluent. But its difficult when you have to work full time, help raise your brothers and sisters, while still being an activist.

(Che Guevara, was born an elite white dude from Argentina, he got degrees in medicine and law from all over the world.  Later as an adult, he became bored with the world and spent the rest of his days bossing around poor and ignorant people to wage "revolutions" for his communist friends in Russia.

From my recollection Che at a very young age decided to join Castro and his revolution. He also during his time in Cuba after the revolution, fufilled his administration duties while still worked along side everyone else building schools, working in the fields, etc. Yes he was born out of a privileged family, and happened to be light skinned. So from what I am getting from your argument is that your creating an ideal Chicano/Mexicano. Certain criteria of what people should be like. Brown skin, speaks spanish, is studying nahuatl, comes from a certain background and knows the whole Chicano/Mexicano culture The same way white Ameirican creates certain standards that are acceptable.  Your getting into the idea of essentialism.

I do give you from the little I know that you are well read and are trying to learn everything about your culture, studying Nahuatl, but I also hope you are doing things for your community and not just talking the talk.

[MobileCancun]

I practice christianity, which is  not an European religion but Jewish.  Jews didn't come to the Americas to take our land by force by the way.  Now, I think we should gradually start switching from Spanish to Nahuatl or Purepecha.

[aztecklaw]

MobileCancun,

I have entered many debates with Christians regarding the war in Iraq and the effects of religion as a whole on mankind.

I would like to ask you some questions regarding your faith and how it relates to the war on Iraq and the history we share. Some of my questions can be viewed as "challenging questions".

But, first I would like your permission to start this conversation with you and whether or not this belongs on this forum.

Here's are a couple of my views:

I was raised in a Catholic family and embraced the Catholic values, later in life I started asking many questions regarding God and religion as a whole, which in turn led me to become agnostic and I am quite comfortable with this now.

I have debated with many white (sorry for using unfair labeling) Catholics and I was very suprised to see what a sharp contrast in views I have regarding religion and this war.

I have been very curious to get the (assuming) Mexican Christian view on this war.

Again, I'm not sure if you would welcome my questions or if it belongs on this forum.

Your time would be appreicated and if you have any questions for me they would be welcome. Thanks.

[MobileCancun]

I have no problem, Azteck, with you asking some questions.  Although, my views may not represent all of the Mexican christians, but my own personal ones.

[Cathy]

There are many individuals who unfortunately are not taught Spanish who should be penalized for this.

There are many Chicanos/Mexicanos in this country who chose to instill English first in thier teachings for thier children for the fact that it would benefit and assist them in thier education towards promising careers.  So why is this choice to be penalized and by who?  Who has the authority to judge what makes one more or less of a Chicano over the other?  The choice of speaking English over spanish or beliefs does not take away from ones culture.  What I don't understand is why people insist the one must choose one culture over the other or if not one is labeled an Oreo or whitewashed.  Why is it that an individual is penalized for integrating both cultures and can't do so without being chastised for it?  Why does it seem to be a threat, is it because the individual is reaping from both worlds and actually making something of themselves as an individual?  

I have tried to relearn it so I can be more fluent

Spanish was your first language and you have to relearn it correct?  So then its my understanding that as you lost part of your language over time, this made you less of a Chicano/Mexicano...less of a person?  I can understand if it made you feel disconnected with your culture, but "less" of a Chicano/Mexicano, that's hard to buy.  Either you are or you're not.  I really think there's enough division in our culture without having someone that starts dictating rules and if you don't do this or don't do that, then you're only 5, 10, 15 percent Chicano/Mexicano.  Being a Mexicano or Chicano, or whatever label one chooses for themselves is in the blood and in thier heart and no one can dictate thier choices or take that culture away.

[Che]

Great follow-up post Cathreina..

I really think there's enough division in our culture without having someone that starts dictating rules and if you don't do this or don't do that, then you're only 5, 10, 15 percent Chicano/Mexicano. Being a Mexicano or Chicano, or whatever label one chooses for themselves is in the blood and in thier heart and no one can dictate thier choices or take that culture away.

That pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

And that will be a great way to end this thread, as it's now off topic.

Note: I encourage the exchange mentioned, and would love to read what you both have to say from the two different religious perspectives...


Che -

[aztecklaw]

===== MOVED =====

I have no problem, Azteck, with you asking some questions. Although, my views may not represent all of the Mexican christians, but my own personal ones.

Okay, I appreciate you clarifing that you can only represent your own views and not all Mexican Christians, that was unfair for me to have you represent all Mexican Christians. Anyone's input on this subject would be appreciated.

My father is a strick Catholic, so he reared me a Christian upbringing. As a child it is easy to accept the concept of God and God being good and is looking out for our best interests. As I grew up reading on the Aztecs, I was thrust into a world of great achievements in science and government and the birth of a contemporary social structure. I had to confront many views regarding Aztec culture and how Aztecs were savages that sacrificed human beings to God. At first I was shocked my ancestors would practice such rituals, but later as I fed my demand for more knowledge on the ritual of sacrifice the truth became to unravel and found out that sacrifice was actually an honor to them (much like the code of honor in the Samuri culture, a form of chivalry if you will)  and not a representation of barbarian practice. So I was finally at ease with our ancestor's culture and grew quite fond of a culture I wish I was able to peek into (I think a story regarding the Aztecs is the making of a great movie in my opinion   )

Then the Spanish came, and they came with the Cross. I'm sure we are all familiar with how that turned out, the Aztecs were deceived,  slaughtered, and diseased almost into extintion and those that survived were reduced to labor under the Spanish. So my obvious first quesiton would be: Why did God come to us in such a way? I looked for some insight from Christians familiar with the history. To my suprise, they insisted that this was not a force led by the Cross, but by Spain. I explained the the two worked hand in hand, this was a sigular effort and not two different organizations persuing their own agendas. Again they said it was Spain and not Christianity that brought the sword. I explained that the Christians there did very little to stop the immoral acts carried out against them if not nothing at all. There are some records that show that some priest even participated in the raping of the women (I did a brief search and was unable to source this statement though). Those that I debated understood the treatment of the Aztecs was wrong, BUT (and this is a big but) they were 'saving' lives in the process. I was unable to even meet them half-ways to how they can rationalize these senseless killings. I was told that they may have lost their lives, but the Cross was going to give them eternal salvation. This was very confusing to me. In this debate, I am told that Christianity had nothing to do with the massacre of Aztecs, yet maintain an opinion that the greater good was being served to them by 'saving' their souls. This has been a concept I have not been able to accept.

My confusion warranted answers so I decided to research Christianity a bit more.

My poking around in Christian history led me to this man - Father Junipero Serra  (1713-1784).

Here is an except from this site:

http://www.californiahistory.net/4_PAGES/missions_saintorsinner.htm

**Conflicting views of Junípero Serra and the missions have produced an ongoing debate among scholars and others interested in the impact of the missions on the Native people of California.

The debate intensified in the 1980s when Pope John Paul II declared Serra to be "Venerable," the first step toward sainthood. Just three years later the pope moved Serra to the second step by declaring him "Beatific." Supporters of Serra rejoiced that the church at last "recognized the extraordinary holiness of this man who was the founder of civilization in California." Critics of the missions, particularly among Native American groups, denounced the move. Some described Serra as a "sadist" and a "fanatic," while one critic of the mission system complained that the canonization of Serra "would be another insensitive reminder of past oppression and maltreatment." **

Here I discovered a Christian movement(?) that affected other poeple very similar to the plight of the Aztecs. Again I started asking Christians the same questions and got the same answers - It wasn't us, but we were 'saving' lives. Even as a Catholic during this time I was unable to agree with the way they would justify such acts. So I had to deal with the fact that Christians didn't bring the sword, they only followed it. I very much felt I was being thrown a curve ball by the Christian community.

Enter the "War on Terrorism". Much of my views of the Aztec and Native American history have changed dramatically because of the event taking place today. I very much feel that we are witnessing a reincarnation of the mysterious Christian mantra that justifies war and immoral acts. In all fairness, all Christians don't share the same views regarding the war in Iraq, but there is a substantial number of Christian constituents that have voiced support for this war that has now claimed one hundred thousand lives. I am seeing Christians defend the war by saying they are 'saving' lives. Once again I am thrust into the very questions that led me away from the idea of God.

So, now I am left questions that I am unable to answer:

Knowing the history of how the Cross came to us, how does one embrace Christianity? What qualifies as a just war? Why is there a belief in God that has not shown divine intervention during my time? Why would God come to the Aztecs and Native Americans in such a way?

I feel that Christianity unfairly demonized Aztec culture and Native American culture. Now, just like the Crusades, the Muslims are being demonized to justify this war and at the same time suggest that lives are being 'saved' in the process

The reason I am unable to believe in God is because I fail to see the goodness in any religion, it seems to create more lines than bond people together. Whether it be European, Jewish, or even Aztec for that matter, I feel that religion is a misconception and an illusion to tap into immortality.

Well, with all my babbling, I am unable to define the crux of my thoughts, but one thought I am left with is:

Why doesn't the Christian God show Christians that they are being manipulated to serve the good of the hierarchy they are under that demand war for personal gain and use religion to supplant a false ideal to gain more support by showing them that God supports this war? Would it be reasonable to say that if religion did not exist that the greed and lust that drives this war would be more readily seen?

I understand that this may be a touchy subject, but I hope I communicated my thoughts in a respectful manner. Thanks for hearing me out and your response would communicated to an open mind. Also, if I stated anything wrong regarding the history of Aztecs, Native Americans, or Christianity please feel free to correct them  

[chicanito]

There are many individuals who unfortunately are not taught Spanish who should be penalized for this.

There are many Chicanos/Mexicanos in this country who chose to instill English first in thier teachings for thier children for the fact that it would benefit and assist them in thier education towards promising careers.  So why is this choice to be penalized and by who?  Who has the authority to judge what makes one more or less of a Chicano over the other?  The choice of speaking English over spanish or beliefs does not take away from ones culture.  What I don't understand is why people insist the one must choose one culture over the other or if not one is labeled an Oreo or whitewashed.  Why is it that an individual is penalized for integrating both cultures and can't do so without being chastised for it?  Why does it seem to be a threat, is it because the individual is reaping from both worlds and actually making something of themselves as an individual?

When you quoted me it was typo when I wrote it. Its was meant to say that: "There are many individuals who unfortunately are not taught Spanish who should NOT be penalized for this. I was originally replying to a post made earlier mentioning that individuals they felt there were more Chicano/Mexicao than anyone else becaue they spoke Spanish and where learning Nahuatl.

 i just want to make the clarification. Even though I left the word NOT out. The overall language of the rest of my post makes the case. I kind of felt you took one line and reacted to it immediately without really taking in everything I was saying. Its important to critically analyze arguments and not just be quick to react when someone says something we dont agree on. Often times they are arguing the same thing. People just to respond and challenge each other.

[chicanito]

I have tried to relearn it so I can be more fluent

Spanish was your first language and you have to relearn it correct?  So then its my understanding that as you lost part of your language over time, this made you less of a Chicano/Mexicano...less of a person?  I can understand if it made you feel disconnected with your culture, but "less" of a Chicano/Mexicano, that's hard to buy.  Either you are or you're not.  I really think there's enough division in our culture without having someone that starts dictating rules and if you don't do this or don't do that, then you're only 5, 10, 15 percent Chicano/Mexicano.  Being a Mexicano or Chicano, or whatever label one chooses for themselves is in the blood and in thier heart and no one can dictate thier choices or take that culture away.

In my post if you read over carefully. No place in my post did I say I felt less Chicano/Mexicano because I was losing my first language being Spanish. I dont see how that became your understanding from reading my post. In the future I ask that people's post be read carefully before we try to put people in their place by attempting to deconstruct their argument by showing how much more we know.